Can we talk about "False" allegations? ( pizzagate )

submitted by justkeeptalking

I'd like to bring up two points to discuss, if I may, so we can possibly form a better idea about how to introduce people these very real accusations, especially in the light of certain articles including the nytimes article discrediting the claims which seems to have been effective in dissuading people from talking about this or investigating any further.

First: the way all those implicated in this investigation are behaving (specifically how their behavior is entirely contrary to the behavior most anyone else would exhibit when slammed with such allegations.) Secondly: The amount of news outlets and "verifying sources" (i.e. snopes) are dismissing this investigation as paranoid tinfoil hattery. Snopes of course outright calling it false (probably off the word of Clinton herself)

For the first point: What kind of pizza shop owner has such power over social media regardless of who eats at his store? This is huge to me. The question has been posed several times of how he ends up on the receiving end of such large donations, and he seems to be cashing in on his connections to cover his ass. This is highly implicating. If a civilian investigation took place into a non-elite pedo ring these allegations being met with the substantial email and social media evidence would paint a gruesome picture for the public, something many more millions would be concerned about taking down. Now if the people investigating this hypothetical non-elite pedo ring were being slammed by the news outlets from all sides for wrongly looking through the private lives of suspected pedophiles, and were subsequently put down for trying to expose them, with the evidence given that would seem damn crazy. I am at a loss for words with the amount of subs and accounts all across the web getting deleted. In any other circumstance we all well know the people on the side of justice would not be berated this way, we would not be censored but instead applauded.

As for the news outlets, it's of course just another dead horse to kick. It is no less than terrifying to see the masses appeased from such harsh and implicating evidence against the very people running their gov't with ABSOLUTELY NO REASONING AT ALL. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, pardon the anecdotal reaction, but I do. NY Times said "we looked into it" Snopes just says "false" WHERE THE FUCK IS THE EXPLANATION. Do we not deserve one? Do the thousands and thousands of american children who go missing year after year not deserve one? In any other case the less than minimal effort put into these conclusions would never be acceptable, but because these people run your gov't you feel it's acceptable to be so cavalier with the investigation pedophile rings? People now as a whole discredit the validity of wiki leaks. AGAIN? We all found out how very real and true the words of Assange and Snowden were regarding the NSA and surveillance. It was a harsh reality to face and apparently the rest of America is again ready to hide under the covers from this "boogie-man" of cold truth.

I'm writing this because I'm tired, I'm confused and I'm quite honestly scared. Scared of the future of the world, they're reaching more and more roadblocks in the Westminster/Savile case and most here in america seems to be satisfied with usual rhetoric: "Here you go, shut up. Go back to bed America."

https://youtu.be/h4izBNlpt6s

▼ LeChevalBlanc

How much effort was initially put in to rule out the "framing" option in JA's Instagramm pics?

I.e. Presentations of the weird Inst. mess. by dates (in order to make sure whether some predate the campaign) and by context (how much % of the total Inst. Mess. if Comet PP?...)

Just basic things that help make up your mind.

By the way, can't guess what it's worth :

Stag https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/59095

Unit 12 C https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/57168

Greenpeace Andrea at appartment https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/53062 David Brock's book party at T.Podesta's. https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/58345

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/58443 Greenpeace India + Podesta Group contract

Greenpeace Andrea Carta at appartment https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/53062

▼ justkeeptalking

It is Just a book by Salman Rushdie, but that's not exactly grounds for dismissal for this being a weird post. Repeated use of the word pasta was what struck me the most.

▼ justkeeptalking

To me "making the good pasta" sounds about as strange as "Doing a pizza for an hour." Not very incriminating, but also not at all how people normally talk.

▼ GeneralProductsHull

um, Satanic Verses is a novel by Salman Rushdie. It actually got him a fatwa issued against him for angering fundamental Muslims. Gotta hand it to Jack though, not the healthiest corpse in the cemetary.

▼ GeneralProductsHull

"In any other circumstance we all well know the people on the side of justice would not be berated this way, we would not be censored but instead applauded."

FBIAnon pointed at the Clinton Foundation... for everything. I'm not the freshest sandwich in the fridge, but I'm beginning to see an Organized Crime Syndicate on an almost unimaginable scale. What do we know about their M.O.'s? A Godfather, Nepotism, Lieutenants, Mules, Coded Communications, and then, their favorite commodities like drugs, weapons, flesh and influence.

Fear not, my friend. Disclosure Fatigue is a very real issue. But there are healthy ways to deal with it. The hardest part I'm having is filtering out the noisy screams and shrill calls to tear down the establishment. We need a long-game. A Generational Army of honest, decent men and women to take up arms against this Syndicate.

They have sedated us with lies, frustration and fear while they slowly, surely built their Babylon. But we are the people of God. He leads, we follow. They will reap what they have sown. And that's a promise.

▼ UglyTruth

If you're looking for a modus operandi then I'd recommend taking a look at the triune brain model. According to this model we each have three independent brains, an innermost reptilian brain, the limbic system, and the outer neocortex. These three are responsible for survival traits, social traits, and the higher cognitve traits, respectively. Survival traits are fight or flight, sexual response, and social dominance. Social traits are emotion based, and the left and right hemispheres of the neocortex process language/logic and image or shape recognition.

The common psychopathy of PizzaGate is r-brain dominance. In the lives of these people empathy and reason play a minor role, with their behavior characterized by social dominance, violence, and sexuality. The opposing pattern or remedy to this condition is the expression of language, reason, and empathy.

▼ GeneralProductsHull

Wouldn't the "methods of operating" be more specific to actions that create evidentiary forensic clues? Rather than underlying psychological archtypes? Understanding how those archtypes drive reasoning/emotion (or lack thereof)/action would certainly help the effort to recognize evidence that may be right under our noses.

▼ UglyTruth

Once you know which archetypes are driving the phenomena you're in a good position to make inferences about the specific actions which are likely to lead to facts with evidentary value. Social dominance and sexuality imply sex trafficking and paedophilia, social dominance and violence imply empire and military aggression, sexuality and violence imply BSDM. What we're looking at here is a cultural phenomena which is most visible at the apex of the social hierarchy.

▼ iamacat

I'd like to bring up two points to discuss, if I may, so we can possibly form a better idea about how to introduce people these very real accusations, especially in the light of certain articles including the nytimes article discrediting

As someone who hasn't decided whether to believe this or not, here are the issues I can see with the arguments.

  • There is a lot of circumstantial stuff but not much hard, uncontroversial evidence. Imagine you're a prosecutor trying to bring a case against this. It would be hard to instruct a jury to interpret this evidence as a proof of guilt. This is hard obviously, if they are doing it, they know not to leave that type evidence around (feel disgusting just typing that).

  • Taken separately each one piece of evidence can be debunked snopes-style. Then in the end if anyone wants they can take either conclusion (all evidence can be debunked so it is false overall and just a conspiracy theory, or all small evidence accumulates to something more and together proves it as true)

  • What kind of pizza shop owner has such power over social media regardless of who eats at his store? : Good point. But here is how it can be debunked. Alefantis is the ex-lover of David Brock, who runs Hillary's super-pac. Was he already powerful and connected before starting this place. Because of connections starting it in DC makes sense. The more connected he is, the more connected he becomes. It is like a feedback effect.

  • ... the amount of subs and accounts all across the web getting deleted. In any other circumstance we all well know the people on the side of justice would not be berated this way, we would not be censored but instead applauded. I think even without more evidence, many labeled this as a "conspiracy theory" and Alefantis is portrayed as a victim who is harassed and doxed. True or not, this is how it is presented and how they can get Redditors and other people to react this way. They basically frame this as toxic topic and something "only crazies would touch"

  • (specifically how their behavior is entirely contrary to the behavior most anyone else would exhibit when slammed with such allegations.) : I think this interesting to look at. How should they act? Is a good question to ask. I would imagine their protectors / lawyers would just say deny it to the press. "Don't make comments about it. Paint accusers as conspiracy theory nuts". But at the same time, I think they'd do it if they were guilty or not. That is what they say. Now something to watch for is to see what they do. They obviously know you are all on their tails about this. So they should be cleaning things up. Are they closing for "repairs", are people from their circle disappearing or going on vacation all of the sudden.

Think about if there is any way to find more links or dig up more evidence. When it is done, present as updated summary page somewhere in the sidebar.

▼ FreeAmerican

Well he was named 50th most powerful person in DC ... Think about that.. More powerful than congressmen, senators.. Etc

But he is just a tiny tip of the iceberg... He is the stop gap, if people get turned off and won't look past him then the others are safe...

▼ justkeeptalking

What I hope is that he doesn't just become the fall-guy as we all watch this case drift into obscurity. Someone is going down for this, but it's up to us how many will be convinced by the conclusions made by the very Gov't that is perpetrating these disgusting acts. In every other elite pedophile ring investigation, i.e. the Franklin cover-up, minimal arrests were made and the public was satisfied. Unfortunately after the fact we all found out that the sexual/ritual abuse victims that the American public was waiting to hear from with regards to Boys Town's connections all the way up to the White House were for the most part dead or imprisoned for perjury without due process, effectively silencing the movement.

▼ ArchonFall4All

I feel your pain and frustration. Cognitive dissonance is real, and it's very difficult to break through to people who suspect that the world is exactly as it's portrayed in the media. I looked at some of the comment sections of these hit pieces, and also on twitter, and these people are so smug. They cite snopes and decry how crazy all of us are. They accuse us of being alt-right racists and homophobes, and they blame the 'fake media.' For those of us who know better, it feels like we're living in alternate reality.

However, a lot more people are waking up to the BS around them. I've been in this game since 2003, and a lot has changed since then. This is what motivates me today. It used to be that you couldn't talk about anything without alienating yourself from all of society. Now these ideas are gaining traction and a lot more people are becoming vocal. We're on the winning side of history, and some day we'll be vindicated

▼ justkeeptalking

Are you shitting me? This just about feels like the warmth of the sun coming through the nuclear holocaust that is pizzagate. I'll be staying vigilant, thanks for the support.

▼ waxdino

In the last few days I've seen something unreal unfold before my eyes: POTUS gives a speech warning of the dangers of fake news. The MSM goes in hard on articles about fake news. Then they finally acknowledge pizzagate- as an example of fake news. It's so fucking obvious. Such an orchestrated cover-up. And frankly, I am a little scared that I can see it!
My only optimism is: we didn't elect Hillary. I don't mean that in a partisan way, I just mean, we were told to vote for Hillary, it was reported that would be outcome, it was expected of us. And people saw through THAT bullshit, maybe we're opening our eyes enough to recognize this and get through it.

▼ VoteOrDie

Are they really going to do recounts? I keep hearing about it and think it's never going to happen... but after what I've heard from Cliff Arnebeck, Bev Harris, and obviously Assange I'm still shocked Trump actually won.

▼ informed-voater

Yes, it's certainly some interesting timing with the whole "fake news" thing. It's all just so laughable to me how these people figure that they can decide what the fuck is news or not. Just try to think about that for a second without laughing. But I really think you're correct and I've been thinking this for the past ten years or so... that I've noticed people waking up. Not as much in my day to day life, but you can see the groups like this on the internet getting larger and larger year after year. It's hard to detect to the average person because they aren't part of it, but rather just swallow the bullshit from TV and when something like Trump winning the election happens it's terrifying for them. The next ten years is going to be even more interesting. Pizzagate might be the biggest scandal the worlds ever seen. I can see this becoming too big to be ignored soon and that will be another amazing moment to witness.

▼ lockherup

The NYT article was written to give the fact checkers of the world "research" to point to. I checked out snopes the other day with regards to to pizzagate, and they had status marked as researching... As soon as the NYT piece came out snopes changed the status to false with their only reference being the NYT. Nice research snopes... "fact checkers" are nothing but a big circlejerk.