For PizzaGate Skeptics.. From r/conspiracy ( pizzagate )

submitted by lugobambogo

Long post here but I'm earnest in my hope that pizzagate skeptics will give it a read and comment. There needs to be an actual debate rather than just snarky dismissals. The media isn't doing its job. They keep going on about "conspiracy theorists" and "alt-right Trump supporters" while failing to mention any of the relevant information. That alone is suspicious to me.

Please feel free to post this on skeptic boards.

I really don't want to believe in Pizzagate. Perhaps you can convince me I shouldn't.

I think there is too much pedo hysteria in general. It's tragic that men no longer want to work with children. Unlike, say, the relative lack of women in STEM (science doesn't care what gender you are) the lack of men in teaching creates real life harm. Children need both male and female role models, especially at a time when so many mothers are single. Social scientists are increasingly becoming aware of just how crucial men are to early childhood development. I'm not sure what the solution is but clearly something needs to be done. Anyway, long and short is that I'm not remotely interested in spreading false news about pedophilia.

I don't support either the Democrats or Republicans, so I don't have a dog in this fight. Actually, from what I gather most Pizzagate researchers believe this to be a bipartisan scandal.

I also take false accusations very seriously. It would horrify to me learn that I was engaged in a witch hunt. I support the Men's Rights Movement's attempts to draw attention to the plight of men falsely accused of sexual crimes.

One thing we know for certain: there are elite pedo rings currently operating in the United States. Pedophiles make up at least 4 percent of the population, and billionaires are not excluded from that statistic.

Another thing we can say with reasonable certainty: high ranking individuals in intelligence agencies are aware of these rings and probably using them for blackmail purposes. A more horrifying possibility is that pedophiles are deliberately being placed in power because they are compromised.

Bad arguments against Pizza Gate: 

It's a "conspiracy theory" and can therefore be dismissed. Apparently the corporate media thinks this is an actual argument. It isn't.

Snopes said it isn't true. See above.

Pizzagate is made up of alt right Trump supporters who hate Hillary Clinton. This is obviously true in some cases, but based on my reading of the Voat forum there are plenty of left wing people involved as well.

if it were true the perps would have been busted. Unfortunately past cases involving elite pedo rings, whether the Fraklin Coverup, the Dutroux Affair, Jimmy Saville etc. display a clear pattern of LEO's covering up for the perps. Why they do this is uncertain. Some of them may be involved. Blackmail may be an issue (there is widespread suspicion that elite pedo rings are run by intelligence agencies). Some LEO's may fear for their lives or those of their families.

There are too many women being singled out for this to be plausible. Pedophilia is a male thing. This is a myth. Some studies have the percentage of female pedophiles as high as 40%.

Parents and grandparents wouldn't pimp out their own offspring. Another myth. Unfortunately busts of low level pedo rings show people doing exactly that.

Politicians are fine upstanding people. I only include this argument because it's a common one for X politician of choice. "Trump's a good man!" "Obama's a good man!" These are emotional arguments. People project their own value systems onto their rulers. This is unwise, since according to Dr. Robert Hare, the world's leading expert on psychopathy, politicians and business leaders are significantly more likely to be psychopaths than the rest of the population.

We have no witnesses. Someone would have spoken out. Pedo rings are often busted by computer divisions in LE. Oftentimes none of the children will have said a word. Pedophiles tend to be quite good at ensuring silence through shame and fear. This is especially true of powerful pedophiles. Nor is it outside the realm of possibility that some of these children are being killed. It's a terrifying thought, but we're talking about people who have no problem killing millions in unnecessary wars of aggression.

Coincidences all?

I don't necessarily agree with the following arguments but for the sake of narrowing things down I'll pretend as though I do: 

The pedo symbols on the two business next to and across from comet, one of which works with "at risk youth", are a coincidence.

MeatballPizza

If it's true the criminals would have been busted?

Like Denny Hastert? Saville with the BBC? Jerry Sandusky?

What a stupid statement to make.

lugobambogo

**PART 3: **Edit: I should also point out that at this point, Pizzagate is no longer just about the Podestas, the Clinton Foundation and Comet Pizza. People are pursuing a lot of interesting leads. One of the really disturbing things so far revealed is that an abnormally large number of groups specializing in work with "at risk" youth and child trafficking have pedo symbols for their logos and links to sketchy individuals (naturally people are also drawing unwarranted conclusions and seeing stuff that isn't there). At minimum that should evoke concern.

Edit 2: Two people so far have attempted to refute two of the four points I ended with.

Re: Luzatto. The statement reads, "you can spend some time with her online, raw and uncut." It has been suggested that she was proud of the baby (described as the "future ruler of the world") and was offering to show people "raw and uncut" footage of this future leader. Still sounds weird as hell. Perhaps she's just gotten a little loopy in her old age?

Re: Podestas and McCann. It is claimed that the police sketches are of one person. Others claim investigators later revised their first impression and believe multiple people were involved.

Edit 3: I should stress that I'm not here to "prove" pizzagate. I was serious when I said I would rather be proven wrong and that I take false accusations very seriously. If people make compelling arguments I will revise my current position, which is basically at least some aspects of pizzagate are real.

Edit 4: Two posters have challenged the "cumulative evidence" point. One suggests that "autists" are finding patterns that aren't there. I think this is definitely true of people who think every symbol or food reference is a tell, but false on the specific points I listed. It is also claimed that people are shocked by the punk rock and gay BDSM scene. I have found this to be true of some of the youtube Christian posters covering the story, but not for pizzagate researchers in general. It is specifically the pedophile stuff that people are concerned about, not kinky sex.

The other poster claimed that the cumulative evidence is largely based on art and innuendo. I responded with what I think is a relevant point: if the intention of eg Abramovic and Kleinman was to shock people and engender discussion about cannibalism and the torture and rape of children through their art, they have responded to these allegations in a very odd way. Instead of saying "I wanted to provoke discussion of X, Y and Z and how pedophilia and child predators affect society etc." or even just "I wanted to piss people off" they have simply claimed that everything is "fake news" by Donald Trump supporters. Alefantis likewise.

MeatballPizza

Don't bother debating CTR shills.

Focus on the investigation and not the trolls.

lugobambogo

**PART 2: ** The pedophilic artwork created by Sasha Lord for rock performances at Comet, of which there are at least three examples (including a deeply disturbing painting by Kim Noble showing adults raping children) are perhaps inappropriate for an "all ages" venue, but these are just hipsters trying to be edgy. "All ages" isn't meant to be taken literally. The night performances usually just involve adults and teens. 

Sasha Lord working with "at risk" girls in juvenile detention is a coincidence.

The painting, now removed, of a guy jizzing while playing ping pong with an alien and the words "Shut up and Fuck" was inappropriate for an all ages establishment, but these guys are just sex crazed, not pedophiles.

Having a sleepover at a pizza restaurant involving both children and adults isn't that unusual (?) It's a community place.

Tony Podesta's art collection, which specializes in images of children, babies, abused children, dead children, cannibalism, pigs, pig-human hybrids, and photographs of naked kids is admittedly bizarre but he just has really strange taste.

John Podesta, who has a picture portraying cannibalism in his office, and used to have an image of a butchered pig as his screensaver before colleagues demanded he remove it, views cannibalism as a metaphor. He's not an actual cannibal (duh). Also, the fact that he lovingly describes his job during college of butchering pigs may imply that he is a psychopath, but not all psychopaths are pedophiles or cannibals.

Marina Abramovic, whose "art" revolves around satanism, pedophilia and cannibalism, is just an attention whore. Shock art is her gimmick.

It is a coincidence that the painter Scott G. Brooks, associated with the Comet crew, paints pictures of babies and toddlers and half-pig-half human babies and toddlers being tortured, sexually abused, and fed excrement [warning NSFL]

Tony's close life long friendship with pedophile "Denny" Hastert is a coincidence. There is no evidence that they molested kids when they taught together in Japan. The "certain unnamed island" in Japan that Hastert was allegedly going to "flee to" after he was busted probably just referred to a getaway vacation house, not a place where he and Tony molested kids beyond the prying eyes of other teachers.

The giant sub-basement Tony created in his home is for art just like he said, not anything sinister.

Obama moving two doors down is irrelevant. No one suspects Obama of anything.

The food references in the emails are odd but John is a foodie and especially likes pizza and hotdogs, like Obama. You'd expect lots of odd food references. Perhaps they were talking about drugs or escorts.

Amanda Kleinman, who performs at Comet and is listed first on their "friends" list, is fascinated by pedophilia and likes to joke about pedophilia and reference it in her music videos to provoke people. Her music video "Neutered Noel", which features images of Chuck E cheese, pizza and pizza related images intercut with babies, children, puppies, babies wearing pizza outfits and a baby wearing a "sugar babies" outfit intercut with images of rape and sexual torture is an example of this.

That woman investigating the Clinton Foundation and child trafficking in Haiti committed suicide because she was depressed. She was not murdered. The same is true of all those past associates of Hillary who committed suicide. Hillary has that effect on people.

Okay. So as you can see by my not-so-subtle sarcasm I'm not entirely convinced by all of the above arguments. However, believe it or not, I'm still willing to entertain the notion that these are all coincides. I mean, fantastical coincides do happen in life.

Here's what I'm having a hard time getting past: 

Jimmy's Instagram. This is what got everyone interested, yet the media refuses to even quote Mr. Alefantis in their "debunking" articles. So far the only explanation I've seen from Pizzagate skeptics is that they were all engaging in "dark humor." This doesn't make sense to me. I have a dark sense of humor. I've laughed at pedophile jokes. But these are pictures of real children who are known to the people in question. It would never occur to me in a million years to make a pedophilic joke if a relative sent me a picture of his child. Yet here are these people doing it not once but multiple times. "Chickenlovers," "Hotard," "Why does daddy like it in the butt," "Gay baby", Baby for sale -- "don't touch", "Yum…baby" etc. I also find the non-sexual comments strangely objectifying. People not using the children's names but saying things like "Ginger!" (red haired baby), "That's a she baby not a he baby" etc. Who the fuck talks like this?

That fucking mole on Tony's forehead. The police sketches of the two suspects in the abduction of Maddie McCan do not roughly resemble the Podesta brothers -- they are an exact fit. Right down to the mole on Tony's forehead. Long before Pizzagate broke, Maddie's parents were suspected of being complicit in the disappearance/murder. While it would be absurd to imagine the Podestas creeping around a rich neighborhood abducting kids, their presence would make sense if the parents or someone close to the parents were part of an elite pedo ring. Apparently they were already into swinging and BDSM. Perhaps something went wrong during the night's "entertainment." Another "coincidence": John deleted his emails the exact date she disappeared.

Tamera Luzzatto referring to "raw and uncut" time with a toddler. Luzzatto was Hillary's chief of staff. She and her husband were referred to in an article as the "real life Underwoods" from House of Cards, implying a Machiavellian and psychopathic bent. In one of the emails about a pool party, she refers to three kids as "entertainment" and mentions their specific ages. I was willing to dismiss that as the ravings of an old crazy lady who has a weird way of talking about kids, but I'm having a very difficult time understanding "raw and uncut" outside of a sexual context.

Cumulative evidence. Any single fact about PizzaGate, if viewed in isolation, would be eyebrow-raising but not enough to suggest anything sinister. But when all of it is viewed together, it does paint a picture, does it not? Are people really "crazy" for thinking this warrants investigation?

pizzathrowaway

There's no evidence that Kim Noble artwork was ever up at Come Ping Pong.