PuttItOut seeking input for new Voat Votes infrastructure putting power in the hands of users ( pizzagate )

submitted by Vindicator

Our fearless, alpine golfing owner and admin has requested community feedback about his proposed new infrastructure designed to empower users and make Voat more subject to votes. In his words:

Alpha preview: Voat Votes

I have always longed to empower the community content producers (submitters and commenters) rather than to centralize moderator power. It has always bothered me that a community can be hijacked by a single person or small group. It is my hope that this feature will make us all stakeholders and prevent some of the most obvious problems with platforms such as these.

I wish I had a nice thumbnail summary of the new capabilities, but I was not able to find one. It's still in the experimental stage. An earlier post on the subject from Putt is here: https://voat.co/v/voatdev/2358972

Please read his stickied v/voatdev post and share your comments on his thread. I highly recommend thorough perusal of the comments there so far, as this will be a huge change.

Additional discussion of potential manipulation by shills and other concerns can be found and contributed to here:

A running list of concerns people have with the upcoming Votes feature

1Saturnwest

Would appreciate better content cataloging, so threads are in themes and up voats are added to main body of a sticky

the34thman

wikileaks key is Rudyard Kipling's M'Andrews Hymn (the poem from 1984's room 101) and Bob Dylan's "Across the Green Mountain" copy down on paper and spread around

argosciv

/confused

Is this system replacing the classic up/down voat buttons for submissions and comments? o_O

Vindicator

No. Enhancing it.

argosciv

Ah, I may have to give it a whirl to get a better understanding lol.

PS: Do I need to sign up an account on the preview site or will the credentials for this one work?

nameof

Is it against the rules to link to YouTube video right here?

Vindicator

No. But we do require folks to describe the content they are linking to in video submissions.

nameof

Got it thank you

nameof

I copied everyone on this threads name and made a post, about the concerns of take over, I linked a YouTube video is that not OK? MY COMMENT IS GONE AND IT TOOK A FEW MINUTES TO GET EVERYONES NAME. I AM SAD

nameof

Yes it was comic relief I thought it went along with it., The idea of putting voat/vote power on the hands of users...but I couldn't find it. After posting...it's NO BIG deal. I'm gonna post again soon...about that old code word stuff again...it was weird how those posts jept getting deleted...I go away when I get too confused.

Vindicator

:-) I've posted and had it not show up immediately, as well, including in my own submission history. It's got to be about the caching or some such techno-fuckery. Well above my paygrade (which is technically everything, since I get paid absolutely nothing.)

nameof

Regarding the serious concerns of a small group or even just a couple of clowns taking over this site. @nobs @peacekeeper @vindicater @srazie ( thanks for the q updates) @ESOTERICshade @wombraider @think @nana66 @deathtomasonsASAP @kevdude @darknight111 @Cc1914 @heygeorge It could easily happen!

https://youtu.be/pX9O4xDW0Kc

FuckUredditFuckuSpez

You are the shill, fucking asshole.

Vindicator

Pretty much what has already been stated about long con type operations. I couldn't find a clear outline of what all it will entail and how much it might impact v/pizzagate (from what I read, some of the options might not apply to all subverses), so my concerns are only vague in nature.

The "tyranny of the majority" is a valid point IMHO. v/pizzagate has a number of very different and distinct sub-groups who are drawn together by their common anger about child sexual exploitation and the corruption and destruction of America's organizations and institutions. There are the Christians who tend to be most concerned with the Satanic aspects of PG. There are the conservative patriots appalled at the use of American might (many are vets or law enforcement) to enable PG. There are the abuse survivors (or friends/family thereof) who want justice but struggle with PTSD and rage. There are the Catholics who know too well the horrors of PG and are determined to put an end to it, but who fear being targeted personally by fellow Voaters because of priest abuse. There are the BernieBros who want to see Hillary fry. There are the once-Democrat idealists who don't like Republicans or Trump and are just here for the kids. There are the Trump lovers from T_D for whom he can do no wrong -- and the utterly disillusioned conspiracists who want to burst the bubble of anyone pro-Trump or pro-America. I don't have a clear sense of what proportion of our members fall into these groupings, but all these voices have a right to speak, and some of them want to silence others. Depending on how the voting system works, it could be problematic.

I guess the biggest concern I have at the moment is how it will effect the selection of mods. It's difficult to find mods for v/pizzagate . The people who WANT to take the heat tend to have a particular agenda they are passionate about (that dominates their comment history -- such as the groups I just mentioned) and it's hard to mod effectively when that is the case. But the dispassionate, critical thinkers tend to not want to become am official Designated Asshole, due to the vicious attacks of shills and the general dissatisfaction of legit members with current moderation. It's not clear how the new voting powers will change how people become mods or get the boot, but shills will definitely try to turn it to their advantage. Sometimes I wish it was a random, rotating assignment like jury duty. :-)

My hope is that the "poll" feature will lead to a great improvement in allowing subverse members to articulate and shape the way they want the sub to function and lead to a much higher satisfaction level. I actually see that benefit as far more likely to have a large impact, so I'm kind of excited to use it.

I do wish it were possible to limit people to one alt Voatwide at a time, though, to prevent gaming the system. Or perhaps have Voat show all of a user's alts on one profile page so they are accountable.

think-

v/pizzagate has a number of very different and distinct sub-groups who are drawn together by their common anger about child sexual exploitation and the corruption and destruction of America's organizations and institutions.

Thank you for this comment. I think most people don't realize how diverse this community is.

Would you consider making a discussion post based on this comment and sticky it?

I think it's important that before the voting system will be set in place that people on this sub realize that we all come from different backgrounds.

Currently, all frustrations are projected on the mods. What people don't realize is, that even when there might be additional mods or mods will be sacked due to the voting system, this subverse still might not change the way they want it to be, due to the different factions of users here.

@kevdude @Crensch @VictorSteinerDavion

ESOTERICshade

Are people being downvoted in here?

If you mean in v/pizzagatemods the answer is yes. Here is a comment with a down vote. I have seen others. I think I have seen comments with three or so down votes but I'm too lazy to look through all those subs. I don't look at that sub very often. The question is, why create a mod sub when only people that have down vote points can down vote. To say that it was not intentional is a statement that skates on very thin ice. "people might brigade the mods" might work for an answer, but, not satisfactory in my opinion.

https://voat.co/v/pizzagatemods/2250205/11123405

darkknight111

Proposal to silence shills: Increased posts per day penalties for users with very large negatives. -100= 5 comments a day, -150=3 a day, -200= 2 comments a day. -250 or more = 1 comment a day.

Proposal B to prevent gaming the system by shills (ie what Donkey did): Limit of 3 accounts per IP. All accounts in excess of that are DELETED. Accounts with bans from verses get counted first.

Vindicator

darkknight, make this comment directly in PuttItOut's thread. No one who can do anything about it will see it here.

DeathToMasonsASAP

I got my copy of Mein Kampf..You got yours?...which additon do you have?

think-

I'm afraid this wouldn't stop hired/paid shills from posting.

And some board members use a VPN, so their IP address won't show.

darkknight111

That's why you combo the two together.

For example, head shill Are_We_Sure due to his extreme low CCP would only be able to post one comment a day per account.

Since two of his accounts are already banned: Proposal B would kick in and delete all of his other alts but ONE, effectively limiting his ability to shill to only one post per day...PERIOD.

Due to his multiple bans, chief system gaming shill Donkey would for all points and purposes be shadow banned from v/pizzagate under this "combo system".

heygeorge

would for all points and purposes be shadow banned

Save it for Rebbit.

As @think- said, mods on Voat have no ability to ban by IP. Such bans are easily circumvented. Due to VPN use, legit users could be easily caught up in the ban were it even possible.

darkknight111

Rats.

Just trying to think of "outside the box" solutions in terms of "shill control".

The "infinite accounts per IP" situation is a legitimate problem. One that shills like Are_We_Sure actively exploit to work around comment per day penalties for low CCP and thus maximize their ability to shill and derail threads. Downvoating isn't very effective for this very reason.

The "Infinite Acounts" issue is something the mods should probably discuss with PuttItOut to see if any effective solutions can be devised.

think-

I'm still not sure how the problem regarding IP addresses could be handled - I think this was brought up when we recently discussed whether we should change the rules to be able to ban Donkey for good via his IP address.

I think either @kevdude or @heygeorge said that a ban via IP address wouldn't be possible, so we dropped this idea altogether in the end.

(Also, do you think those of us who already write many comments per day should be the ones entitled to torment the others with our rants even more, lol, while someone who isn't here daily should only have restricted assess? I'd like everyone to share his/her opinions, and don't want to restrict the amount of comments per day for newbies. On the contrary, they should be able to contribute as much as possible.)

Cc1914

" putting power in the hands of users " haha that's a good one ! I know your just passing along info but this made me rotf laughing !

ESOTERICshade

They already created a situation where you can create a sub and only certain users can down vote. That was supposedly to stop vote farming but it won't thwart vote farming and it hasn't. Try down voting in v/pizzagatemods . You can't do it and you will never be able to do it, ever. Only people that accrued points in that sub before they put a 10 CPP limit on the sub can. You have to have 10 CPP to down vote in that sub. But now that they set that 10 CPP rule YOU will never gain those ten points because the system won't add them. So if you get down voted in v/pizzagatemods its not your fellow board members. It s small group of users that got their points in the sub and then rigged the sub so that you will never be able to downvote the mods. Pretty sneaky.

Cc1914

Oh ya ..I've tried downvoating in v/pizzagatemods before and no can do .. I have resolved in my own mind that things around here are not going to change just like they aren't gonna change ( for real ) outside of cyberspace . It's gotten so old , and is why we've lost so many good researchers . Its a complete joke how some mods in particular , think they are somehow authority over all opinion here !

Vindicator

Why can't you get 10 CPP in v/pizzagatemods ? Just make some comments. I don't see the problem.

???

think-

I made a comment, and got one upvoat, but my CCP are still 0.

ESOTERICshade

I made a comment, and got one upvoat, but my CCP are still 0.

It should always stay at zero too because of that 10 CPP limit. You should never gain that ten points. I don't why they would change the code to allow that because it won't stop vote farming.

ESOTERICshade

Remember we went through this when we talked about setting a CPP limit in this sub. Me, you, and kevdude tried to explain to people that if the CPP is set above zero nobody from that moment forward can accure points in that particular sub.

Vindicator

Interesting. Yes, I do remember that.

I just made an experimental comment there to see if it changed my CCP. It was at 21 before the comment. Hasn't changed yet, but I don't know how often the cache is updated. I know it hasn't been right away since before the port. I will check it tomorrow.

ESOTERICshade

I think I understand what you are trying to do now. In the mod sub it tells you how many cpp points you have in tiny letters in the sidebar. If the CPP in the sidebar still functions like it did when we ran that test for everybody you should not gain any cpp. Weird thing about the test sub we did was that the minimum cpp never showed up in the sidebar but it still would not add points because the mod dashboard clearly had that function turned on and it didn't add any points even when comments were up voted. Maybe it did not show up in the sidebar because of a code bug. Not sure.

ESOTERICshade

Also, somebody might up vote a comment of yours tonight so how would you know which was which?

ESOTERICshade

I just made an experimental comment there to see if it changed my CCP.

You are getting out of my league now because I don't know how that would work in multiple subs because I didn't try it. I guess its possible that you might get that point but it won't count for that sub? I ran my test in a controlled environment with a brand new user name and only commented in that test sub. That way we knew exactly what we were dealing with. How that will pan out over multiple subs is out of my league. That user name I used has never commented again or been used I don't think.

think-

Sorry, I don't understand either.

On the pizzagate sub you have to gain 100 CCP before you can downvote, on the v/pizzagatemods you have to gain 10 before you can downvote - what is the difference?

Someone who starts here on v/pizzagate with 0 CCP will be able to downvote once he/she will have 100 CCP, but on v/pizzagatemods he won't be able to downvote once he got 10 CCP? I'm confused.

ESOTERICshade

On the pizzagate sub you have to gain 100 CCP before you can downvote, on the v/pizzagatemods you have to gain 10 before you can downvote - what is the difference?

Look in the sidebar of v/pizzagate . You don't see a voting CPP requirement. What you are talking about is a global voat wide deal. That 100 CPP is for all of voat and every sub. What I am talking about is different. Look in the sidebar of v/pizzagatemods and it says 10 CPP and it will tell you that your CPP is zero. You don't see a minimum CPP in v/pizzagate though. If you see a minimum number in a sub you will never gain any CPP in that sub, ever.

Womb_Raider

Of course shills like Vindicator like this idea. It allows easy take over of smaller subs. It could allow corporate shills to destroy anything they disagree with here. This stinks like unclean female genitalia.

Vindicator

Don't be a retard. I highlighted both Putt's post and Peacekeeper's thread about serious unresolved issues.

DeathToMasonsASAP

How is Trump doing fighting the powers that be? How is the PG investigation going over a year and change later?...9-D chess?

Womb_Raider

I saw you reference PeaceSeeker's damage control post. He's SBBH. They want this.

I don't see anything but exploitation from this.

Vindicator

I don't really understand the whole SBBH controversy so I didn't see it that way. I included it to give a balanced pro/con overview to get people thinking and commenting. As with any big change, the risk of unintended consequences is large. As v/pizzagate is possibly the most shilled corner of the internet, this will obviously effect us more dramatically than many other places.

ESOTERICshade

I read the thread and i'm not sure but it might also be based on subscribers to the sub. I'm not even subscribed to this sub and I comment here all the time. I couldn't really figure out if its just posting submissions, or submissions and comments and subscribers or exactly how its all set up.

There are valid concerns though. I could see a scenario where over a period time a small group of power users could game the system by become power "content creators" and raid a sub. Some of the comments that pointed this out had about 30 up votes so a lot of people must be concerned about how all this will turn out.

Vindicator

Which is exactly why I highlighted @Peacekeeper 's thread on the concerns in my sticky. The concerns are legit.

Womb_Raider

I could see a scenario where over a period time a small group of power users could game the system by become power "content creators" and raid a sub.

I really can't foresee any mechanism that can prevent this...

Nana66

When I vote on anything it goes away after I refresh, but leaves the icon showing that I voted. So my votes are all pretend.

Vindicator

Nana, if the icon remains highlighted, what are you seeing that is making you think your vote didn't count? Is the vote tally not changing? Do screenshot it and post it to voatdev. They are trying to fix all the bugs from the code port.

DeathToMasonsASAP

Do you have the 2nd or 3rd addition of Mein Kampf?...MF wants us to talk about it. Your oppinion?...Because you know, to question the state, is to be a Nazi

Nana66

Start 12

https://i.imgur.com/aMhI84I.png

Up vote 13

https://i.imgur.com/5TOiEww.png

After refreshing the page only 11

https://i.imgur.com/gukvQAO.png

What is voatdev?

think-

What is voatdev?

v/voatdev

ESOTERICshade

what are you seeing that is making you think your vote didn't count?

button turns blue and it seems to have added the point. but then if you look later the button will be blue but it won't say plus one. the comment will still have zero up votes. but if you click the button again it will pop the point in there. its buggy code or something. its not intentional

Nana66

Same thing happens to me on Reddit...sometimes my up vote make the count go down instead of up.

ESOTERICshade

When I vote on anything it goes away after I refresh, but leaves the icon showing that I voted. So my votes are all pretend.

That happens to me all the time. The icon will be blue but the vote won't be there. Sometimes if you click it again the vote will register. But like you said you have to keep refreshing the page to see if it sticks. Then sometimes it will freak out totally and start saying some sort of code letters like na na or something. I have no idea what that means.

Voatwontletmesignin

My upvoats are deleted as soon as I leave the site! I have to come back 3 or 4 times to repeat my votes to make them stick!!!

Vindicator

I know there have been some issues with caching from what I've read at v/voatdev . However, I'm not a code slinger. Take a screenshot or two showing the problem and post it to v/voatdev . Those guys will know. You might user searchvoat.co to search that sub for posts on the same subject first, though.

DeathToMasonsASAP

I got my copy of Mein Kampf...you got yours? What copy you got? Sooooooooooo. Is MF a mod here? What do you think of MF?

RickFlairWOOOOOO

So... They let you sign in this time?

Voatwontletmesignin

I don't seem to have that problem anymore lol.

NoBS

Liar. Pulling an Obama is why censorship on this site is a boon to pedophiles.

RickFlairWOOOOOO

Can you elaborate?